Quality decides the outcome, and that’s where we are zeroing in on in this exclusive conversation with a veteran from the education sector. Dr Maurice Kenneth Dimmock is a globally respected figure in international education, with over four decades of experience in teaching, higher education leadership, and accreditation. He holds degrees in Physics and Educational Psychology, is a Chartered and Euro Engineer, and is a member of the Institute of Physics and IEE. Beginning his career as a Physics teacher in Hull, he became an HMI Inspector within three years and later served as Assistant Principal of a UK college. AT Northumbria University, he served as Director of International Operations, developed pioneering 2+1 and 3+0 transnational pathways with Malaysian universities, and secured over £11 million in World Bank funding. Dr. Dimmock later chaired a globally respected accrediting body for 15 years and now consults universities worldwide on rankings and partnerships. He currently serves as Chairman of the Board of Academics at East Bridge University.
Asia Education Digest has had the opportunity to talk to Dr Dimmock elaborately on the quality of education, role of institutions, accreditations, and a lot more.
AED: What we would like to first discuss with you is what inspired you to move from teaching to get into academic leadership globally?
Dr. Dimmock: I think, first of all, physics was always my initial passion. Going against my father, my father was a chemist, and he wanted me to work in chemistry, similar to him. But I was enjoying it more. When I was at school, I was not a good student. The lecturers, the teachers, were, I'm afraid, not very good, and I was only interested in football, be honest. I spent most of my time playing soccer, not interested in academic work. So, I started to work first at ICI, and I took an apprenticeship.
Whilst I was there, they sent me on day release and night school to study for my National Certificate, Higher National Certificate. And I found a totally different type of lecturer and teacher in further education. People who'd actually work in industry knew what it was about and were able to apply the academic knowledge. From there, I went to university, and again at university, I met quite different types of teachers. The mathematics teacher was somebody who faced the blackboard or the whiteboard, actually it was a blackboard in those days, and just wrote mathematical formulas on, and then I had another lecturer, my physics lecturer, called Dr. Wilson, who unfortunately passed away two years ago. He was brilliant.
He was so interactive, and he brought physics to life. He made it fun, made it relevant, and that's what really caught my passion for teaching. I wanted to be like him. He was my mentor. So, after I did my research, I did my research in film technology with Professor Wilson.
I decided I really wanted to go teaching, so I went to Hull University and I did a PGCE and an M.Ed., and then I worked in private education in a nautical school in Hull. And I think even all the different jobs I've had, the most enjoyable was when I was in front of the students. I just loved teaching.
I became an inspector for the Majesty's Inspector of Schools. I had the sixth form quite quickly. I taught physics and mathematics. It was a nautical school, so they also taught me sailing. And then I ended up teaching sailing. It was quite strange, really. But I think what really moved me away from schools and teaching physics in schools was
The curriculum was not kept up to date. I was teaching air-level physics, and the stuff I was teaching was very, very old-fashioned was out of date. Then I had an opportunity to move into further education, where I first caught my passion for teaching. So, I moved back up to Teesside and I started lecturing at what was then called Romulans College, which is now Middlesbrough College. And now I was teaching engineering, instrumentation, and control, which has links to physics. From there, I became a senior lecturer, I also became a chartered engineer.
I then got an opportunity to be a Dean of Engineering at another college in the area, and, whilst I was there, I started to get involved in international work, and I was putting bids in for World Bank funding. Actually, my first international exploration, really, was in Dubai.
Abu Dhabi, and we won a contract with the Ministry of Defence to train their trainees, and we won that contract against top colleges and top universities. I then put in for a big World Bank contract in Fabroptics, which is one of my areas of specialism, and we won that contract. It was a lot – about three million US dollars, I think. After the contract, I got a telephone call from Dr. Wilson, who was my mentor and my teacher of physics, and my inspiration, really, said Morris, you just won the World Bank contract. I said yeah. said well, we bid on that as well, and we didn't get it. How can a college win a World Bank contract, and we don't? I said, look, I'll come and talk to you. So, I went up to the university, spoke to Dr. Wilson, and I took my bid with me. It was a… I said, right, let me have, like, your bid. And it was just, I said, look, when you put these bids in for World Bank funding, you've really got to put a lot of stuff in there, your background, your experience, experience of the lecturers, how you're actually going to deliver, not just put in a curriculum. So, that's how I moved, and then they offered me a post at the university as head of international development. It was really getting to bid for more World Bank projects. So, I accepted it, you know, and I moved up to Newcastle and I started working as an International Development Officer at the University.
AED: With your experience in setting up so many internationally successful collaborations and partnerships for universities, what do you think is the key to setting up the best collaborations, and what do you think makes cross-border collaborations successful, and what should institutions be focusing on to make that happen?
Dr. Dimmock: To me that's one of the most important things is understanding and accepting other people's cultures. And also, when you're looking at a partnership, unfortunately, people go into a partnership and look for a win situation for themselves. They're not looking for a win-win situation. In fact, a win-win-win. To me, if I'm setting up a partnership overseas, it's got to be for the benefit of ourselves, for the institution we're looking to partner with, but above all, the students. It's got to be a benefit to the students. If it's not, what's the point? We're in the business of education. And to me, an institution, any institution, whether it's a school, a college, a university, whether it's an online organization, should be concerned about the duty of care. And whatever I've done, I've always built it on various duty of care pillars.
First of all, it's the duty of care to the students, the duty of care to the staff, the duty of care to the academic process. We need to make sure that the academic process is rigorous. And so the duty of care to the community. I always believed that any college or school, or university should have an involvement with the local community. I know it's difficult for online institutions to do that. But generally speaking, to be involved in the community. Also, that any institution, any educational institution should be about inclusivity and diversity. And giving opportunities for all. Education is a right. Everybody should have access to education. One of my big concerns today is the number of women around the world who do not have access to education. That is something that all institutions have to address. Also, these days, I think we all have learned a lot through COVID. I remember sitting in my garden back in England when COVID hit. We weren't allowed to go out. We weren't allowed to mix. All of a sudden, the environment became beautiful. Birds were singing, rabbits were coming into the garden, and the seas were a lot clearer. We're getting more fish coming close to land. And I think COVID showed us what the environment could be like. And I'm 100 % behind the United Nations sustainability goals. And I now encourage all institutions to strive towards the United Nations sustainability goals. So we've got a duty of care to students, a duty of care to staff, a duty of care to the academic process, a duty of care to the community, a duty of care to sustainability in the environment, and a duty of care towards inclusivity and diversity.
If an institution that I'm looking at working with is not interested in those things, then I'm afraid I'm not interested in working with them.
AED: If you could throw some light on what you feel are the biggest challenges for educational institutions today when they want to improve their global visibility and also make a mark in the university rankings worldwide.
Dr. Dimmock: Okay, I think one of the things that's happening worldwide now, in the West, the universities, their fees have become very, very expensive. There is a move away from traditional engineering and science, and many faculties are closing down. That's why lot of universities now are looking internationally to recruit students to the engineering, the science and medical fields because their home students are just not going there. As far as challenges are concerned, it's almost going to be on recruitment. I remember when I first started international student recruitment at the university. There were five major countries involved in recruiting international students. There was the UK, the US, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, plus one or two others.
The last exhibition I went to in China, was 84 countries recruiting international students. Most international students now are coming from China, closely followed by India. The number of Indian students now studying overseas is rapidly catching up.
One of the big problems also, I found that it was very easy for us to recruit Chinese students. But we had an MBA class, and in that class, 95 % of them were Chinese. And that's not a good experience for the students. And we had a Chinese lecturer in there as well as an English lecturer to help with translation. So, I think one of the things universities need to do now is certainly look at diversity. Recruiting students not just from one country, where it's easy. I've already mentioned the number of students studying overseas from India and China.
It's not good to have all the Indians or all the Chinese. You want a good mix of international students so they get a good international cultural experience. So, look at other countries to recruit students from, so you get a good mix. One of the other challenges. Unfortunately, many universities recruit through educational agents, and many of these agents, to be quite honest, are bogus. They recruit inappropriate students; they recruit students who are not interested in studying. Calendar recently reported that 80,000 international students went missing. They're on student visas but never turned up. We have the same situation in the United Kingdom.
So, one of the challenges for universities and international recruitment is to make sure they work with good-quality ethical agents. We recommend organisations such as Weber from Switzerland, who monitor agents and they're credit agents similar to IAAC. Actually, credit education agents check them out to make sure that they are legitimate. In order to increase their global recognition, first of all, they need international accreditation, and they need to be able to demonstrate that they are truly international, and that's not just about the number of students they recruit.
It's about including international topics within the curriculum. It's about allowing students to have exchanges in other countries. About staff having exchanges with universities in other countries. And it's about allowing their lecturers and their students to present papers at international conferences. That's the first thing. International accreditation is so important. The second thing is a hot topic at the moment, the rankings, world university rankings.
World university rankings are 80 % biased towards research. Yet, at any university, 80 % of what goes on inside the university is about teaching, not research. Yet, governments are now pressing universities to gain a better university ranking.
So what universities are doing is they're putting all their efforts and their funding into research. OK. So, what happens then? The quality of the teaching goes down. So, the majority of the students suffer. And we see this worldwide. So, I think the world university rankings are here. Universities will try and raise the rankings. But I'll say to you, all the governments want their universities to be in the top 500, top 300. Isn't it a good marketing point for a university to say, okay, we are ranked number 995 in the world. What does that mean? And quite often, what the rankings are doing is comparing apples with oranges. All universities are different. What I would say to any university is, don't forget what your whole business is about. It's about teaching students, helping them to get their degree, and helping them to prepare them for the workforce, which is another thing I want to come on to.
Think, remember, six years ago the World Bank produced a report asking employers, what's the biggest problem in recruiting students? They all said the same. They are not ready for work. They've got a lot of head knowledge, but they don't know how to apply it. What I'm seeing in many countries, not so much, I'm afraid, in the West, but in India, Thailand, Malaysia, and in Africa, students are able to have internships. Well, they have a period of time where they work. Same with the teachers. If you look at any teacher training program, they spend time in the classroom learning how to teach, learning about the pedagogy, and what I'm seeing outside of the West is universities giving internship opportunities where they can go and work with a company to see what work is all about. So, this is another area that I think universities really could improve. As well as the rankings, there is the QS star, and they are slightly more towards teaching, and they're able to give stars for different aspects of work. They're rather accrediting bodies such as IASC, who do something very similar, and they look at governance, they look at health and safety, teaching and learning, they look at how they market their institution, and yes, they also look at research.
It's a good split across the different aspects of an institution. I think universities, perhaps especially in the West, have a lot to do. They need to change. They need to think about why they're doing what they do and what the end result is going to be. Don't just recruit international students for the money because it is lucrative.
Yes, look at the rankings, but don't change your core function to suit the rankings. And I would make a plea to the Times Higher to QS, to the Johnson ranking systems, to change what you're doing. Okay, have different categories. Okay, there are research universities, but they're also universities that concentrate on teaching. So have different categories. They've already got categories for new universities, which is good. And they've got categories for regional universities. But they also should have categories for the type of university. So, you're comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges, not apples with oranges.
AED: You mentioned that it is very important for students to focus on real life career and if they are prepared for it. So how do they choose the institution that will prepare them for real life challenges?
Dr. Dimmock: It's a difficult question really because different students are looking for different things from the university. Also, many students are influenced by their parents. I was influenced by my parents. And they're also influenced by their peers. Quite often, they'll go where their friends go. I remember a case when I was at the university that I was interviewing a student and he wanted to do multimedia studies. So, what we used to do was interview the student first. Ask him what are you looking for from a university? I want to study in a nice city. I want to study in the UK. want a university that offers my subject. I want a university that obviously an opportunity to work in the industry. In all honesty, the target wasn't interested in rankings. It was more interested in the city, what the city was like, how international students were welcomed in that city. It was quite interesting that after that we bring the parents in because the parents are the ones who are funding it. The parents wanted him to do accounting. He did not want to do accounting. So quite often universities will have a dilemma. The students will want to do one thing and parents will want them to do another. But generally speaking, I find now that students are looking for a progressive university. One that gives them opportunities for internship. Very important. They're also looking for cities, for universities that are in a nice environment. If they're doing subjects like engineering or science, they'll want to know what resources there are. Have they got the up-to-date equipment to work on? Equipment that has been used in industry. Also, now students are getting curious about at the lecturers who are actually lecturing there. What's their background? Have they worked? Or have they just bachelor's, PhD teaching? Because they want lecturers who have got some background knowledge. I'm not finding many students these days ever ask about rankings. The parents do, but the students don't. Let's be honest, students, they want to study, they want to have a good time. They want to, to me, university life is about learning about life.
Well, I'm finding now one of the prime things that students are looking for are internship. They look very closely at websites. They literally interrogate websites, Facebook. What are other students saying about that university? Have they had a good experience? Did you look at accreditation as opposed to rankings more? Are they internationally accredited? Do they have international students? Am I going to be in class of everybody from China or from one particular country? And they are looking for diversity. But it's, I know it doesn't sound a very good answer really, but a lot of them choose it on the city.
I remember recruiting some students from Malaysia and I said why are you choosing Newcastle? I love the football team.
It's amazing the different reasons students actually study. But when they get down to it; they want to make sure they've got the programme that they've got to offer, the resources that they offer. Are there opportunities for internship? And also, these days, the situation with the visa. How easy is it to get a visa? I've just read in newspaper yesterday that international students are turning their backs on the USA and that's for one reason only. won't go into that but I most people know. International students from Harvard are having their visas revoked.
Students who are due to go to Harvard internationally, and now are moving to other institutions like Oxford and Cambridge. So, the ease of visa is also a very important issue. I know it's not an academic issue, but it's an important issue for students. Many students, they want an opportunity to work whilst they're studying.
I remember in England, 20 years ago students could work up to 21 hours a week. I don't know how they managed to do that as well as study but they were allowed to. Then they reduced it to 15 hours then they stopped it. And the number of students dropped dramatically. Because international fees are expensive and they want to work as supplements, their income to pay for studies and accommodation. And also, students used to be able to stay in a country for a year or two years after graduating. Most countries now have stopped that. So, finance is a big issue. Visas are a big issue, academic program is a big issue, the quality of the lecturers and the resources and their accreditation. All these things and how attractive is the website? That often, you know and unfortunately, I'm seeing many universities exaggerate too much what's on offer on the website.
Looking at the social media now, students can find out what other students feel about that institution, and that is becoming more and more popular now. So many universities now have talking heads on their websites, but more importantly, I think students are posting on Facebook, Twitter, X, rather than their experiences of being at a university.
AED: With over 40 years of experience in this education field, what do you think is the best thing that you would take out of your entire experience? What is the legacy that you've taken from your entire career?
Dr. Dimmock: Many things. I've had lots of wonderful, wonderful experiences. Well, I go back to right from the beginning. My best experiences have always been with the students. Either teaching them initially, working in FE, helping them with their work experience imparting my knowledge on the working environment. And then when I was recruiting international students, I was sitting down and talking to the students and advising them on the best course to suit their particular needs. And then when I worked in accreditation, it was when we did the accreditation, we used to have meetings with the management, meetings with the staff, we looked around the campus and resources, we did lesson observation, but we also met with groups of students. That was by far the best part. You learn a lot about an institution by talking to the students. And when we did that, we didn't allow any members of staff to be present. No cameras in the room, so they could be totally honest. And they were. So, my best experiences have always been, in all honesty, with students. I think secondly, it's when I worked in accreditation,
I started a quite large accrediting body 18 years ago from scratch. I know everything I've done, I've tried to build it on my experiences, my teaching. I saw what a bad teacher was and what a good teacher was. And when I started the accrediting body, I looked at how other inspectors and incredibly bodies operated. And I exploded the myth that accreditation was meant to strike fear into institutions. You know, when I was at the university, QAA visited, teaching stopped, walls were painted, new things went up on the wall, equipment was polished, you know, we prepared ourselves for it. And when I was an HMI inspector, we were told, Don't talk too friendly with any of the staff. You're there to inspect. You're there to find fault. I just went the other way around. We used to inspect in a friendly but robust way. And we went in to highlight all the good things that they did. And then we also obviously highlighted things that we could do better. So, I think, guess one of my legacies, one of the things that I am so proud of, really is, I believe, I changed the face of accreditation. It was still robust. It was still genuine, but it was done in a much better manner.
The focus of our accreditation really was not the process itself, generally. The process was about gathering information. But what we could do for an institution after accreditation, where we could then continue that work and help them to improve. We would identify areas of strength. would identify recommendations for improvement, and then we would help them to improve, whether it be health and safety, whether it be student recruitment, whether it be developing their website, the quality of their teaching, or putting better QA systems in place. You mentioned earlier that international partnership development was one of our strengths. And also helping universities gain a better university ranking or gain more QA stats. So yeah, I think I went a long way, not just me, but my team went along. We had some good inspectors, but we went a long way, I think, to change the face of accreditation.
AED: We have been talking about what you remember the most from your experience in the past. So now let's talk about the future. So, what excites you most about the future of education today?
Dr. Dimmock: Okay, earlier on, I mentioned COVID. COVID was very bad for the world. It had some good points. And one of the good points was that many schools and universities changed the way they taught. They went online, and I think they realized how difficult it is to actually teach online. Some did it asynchronously, some did it synchronously.
They managed to get most of their programs online. And students studied online. Their assignments were marked remotely, and it worked. Prior to COVID, I remember, it must be 20 years ago, I was working with the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. In Canada, they changed their school leaving age, which meant the universities were getting many more students into first year because of the change in school leaving age. So, what we proposed was, in those days, we called it the flip system, where, instead of the students coming into classes, the lecturers prepared notes and they were sent remotely to students or whatever. And the actual learning material was taught, was taken on board, or learned remotely. And then they came into the university for discussion, debate, and heard it being talked about around the topic. And some of the older professors were, oh, they're appalled. We can't do that. But there's no other answer. So, they did that. And the results were far better than they were with the old traditional. The same things happen now with since COVID.
Many universities now, they are now delivering the learning material online and then bringing students into the classroom for discussion and debate. Whereas previously, students would come in and they would be given handouts or there'd be PowerPoints on the board or whatever. And most of the time, it was just absorbing information, which you can do remotely anyway. Now, at the time of the university is much better utilised. That they're actually discussing with their peers, with their tutors, and discussing around the topic, how it's applied in real life. So, I do think that's one of the real positives coming out of COVID. And of course, being able to deliver programmes online helps with inclusivity and diversity. It's enabling you to put your programs out to a much wider audience at a much lower cost. So, it's helping, in my view, the whole area of inclusivity. The other thing I spoke about is sustainability.
I'm now seeing many, many universities seriously looking at sustainability, looking at the environment, lowering their carbon footprint, and looking at how they can conserve energy. One university we accredited in Thailand, when the last student goes out of the classroom, automatically the air conditioning and the lighting go down.
Okay, really conserving energy using wind power, using solar energy. And thanks to the United Nations and also the Time Fire, which have rankings now aimed towards sustainability.
I'm seeing many, many universities now getting involved. More of their research is being done towards sustainability. So, what excites me mainly is that universities are taking seriously the issue of inclusivity and diversity, taking seriously looking at sustainability. I am seeing more universities now giving opportunities for students to have an internship. I'm seeing more universities get involved in the true meaning of internationalisation, and I'm seeing more universities now collaborating with other universities, and that does excite me.
AED: Can you give more insight into what is happening in the professional development sphere? So, what is the change in landscape for professional development, and what do you think are the factors that are driving this change?
Dr. Dimmock: Okay, I think you mentioned yourself, really lifelong learning becomes far more acknowledged worldwide. Most professions now require their staff to undertake so many hours per week of professional development. It happens in schools and universities, accountancy companies, law companies, and many professions now require their staff to undertake professional development. And I think the reason is that technology is changing so rapidly. So, what's driving it, I think, is the need to keep up to date with modern trends, modern technology. As people are undertaking more research, they're finding better ways of doing things. And that's all professions, it's not just one profession, it's all professions. I'm pleased to say that the teaching profession seems to be at the forefront of this, that they're realizing that there's so much to learn in teaching our young people. And in my view, all teachers should be continuing their development, whether that be through short courses.
Whether it be doing master's degrees or part-time, whether it be undertaking programs online. And again, the number of online programs available now, short one-day courses, three-day courses, three-week courses, they're in abundance. And many of them are free. They're in the public domain. In fact, Yale and both produce now continual professional development programs in all professions, free of charge. That's how important it is for employers for their staff to keep up to date with the modern technology. And also, if you look at the inventive AI, artificial intelligence, again, that's making high-quality professional development possible at very, very low cost.
AED: What excites you most about the future of education today?
Dr. Dimmock: Okay, earlier on, I mentioned COVID. COVID was very bad for the world. But it had some good points, one of the good points was that many schools and universities changed the way they taught. They went online. And I think they realised how difficult it is to teach online. Some did it asynchronously, some did it synchronously. They managed to get most of their programs online. And students studied online, their assignments were marked remotely, and it worked. Prior to COVID, I remember, 20 years ago, I was working with the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. In Canada, they changed their school leaving age, which meant the universities were getting many more students into first year because of the change in school leaving age. So, what we proposed was that in those days, we called it a flip, flip system. Where instead of the students coming into classes, the lecturers prepared notes, and they were sent remotely to students' laptops or whatever. And the actual learning material was taught, was taken on board, or learned remotely. And then they came into the university for discussion, debate, heard it talking around the topic, and some of the older professors were, oh, they're appalled. We can't do that. We can't do that. But there's no other answer. So, they did that. And the results were far better than they were with the old traditional. The same things have now with since COVID. Many universities now they are now delivering their learning material online and then bringing students into the classroom for discussion and debate. Whereas previously, students would come in and they would be given handouts or PowerPoints on the board or whatever. Most of the time, I was just absorbing information, which you can do remotely anyway. Now, at the time of the university, it is much better utilised. That they're discussing with their peers, with their tutors, and discussing around the topic, how it's applied in real life, etc. So, I do think that's one of the real positives coming out of COVID. And of course, being able to deliver programmes online.
Helps with inclusivity and diversity. It's enabling you to put your programs out to a much wider audience at a much lower cost. So, it's helping, in my view, the whole area of inclusivity. The other thing I spoke about is sustainability.
I'm never saying many, many universities now, seriously looking at sustainability, looking at the environment, lowering the carbon footprint, and looking at how they can conserve energy. One university we accredited in Thailand, when the last student goes out of the classroom, automatically their conditioning and the lighting go down. Okay, conserving energy, using wind power, using solar energy, and thanks to the United Nations and also the times higher who have rankings now aimed towards sustainability. I'm seeing many, many universities now getting involved, and more of their research is being done towards sustainability.
So, I think what excites me mainly is that universities are taking seriously the issue of inclusivity and diversity, and taking seriously looking at sustainability. I am seeing more universities now giving opportunities for students to have an internship. I'm seeing more universities get involved in the true meaning of internationalisation, and I'm seeing more universities now collaborating with other universities, and that does excite me.